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Author Topic: Class Discussion 01 - Class Balance  (Read 8725 times)
Dentin
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« on: July 11, 2009, 05:08:00 pm »

Multiple people - regarding all classes being balanced
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I think many of you have a misconception about what class balance means. Balance is not about people being able to kill big mobs solo or get fame regardless of level organization.

Balance is about the number of people who play each class, and to what levels.

A good example right now are clerics, which are widely considered the least balance of the classes.  The main reason given for this is that it's hard for a cleric to get fame - but that's not the real reason it's unbalanced.  It's unbalanced because it's not fun to play at high levels. The class doesn't "scale", as Mutt would say.

But the solution to this is not to add a bunch of kick ass damage spells and skills to cleric.  The solution is to make higher cleric levels more useful.  That can be heal additions, or new wierd non-combat related skills - it need not be damage related.  Cleric should not, in my mind, be just another fighter class with different abilities.

I fully expect that some new classes may not be completely combat oriented.  I'm ok with that.  I consider that a feature, not a bug, and that's not what balance is all about.
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boa
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« Reply #1 on: July 11, 2009, 06:34:25 pm »

A way to get cleric to scale without breaking it would be via a 'dispel for clerics'. Now before you dismiss this idea, realize that the cleric powers such as bless and sanctuary, are god-given.  The mage dispel magic should not dispel these affects.  Giving cleric a 'debuff' spell would not only make cleric 'more suited for faming' but would also just make sense. 

I *do* think ability to solo within a given class is important, and we should not have 'throwaway classes' for the solo famers.  I probably overvalue of combat/faming skills in a class, but also you probably undervalue it.  People aren't going to want a character that they find out is weak on his own.
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Cria
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« Reply #2 on: July 11, 2009, 10:39:54 pm »

Average level:  21.9 mage, 20.3 cler, 22.6 thief, 21.7 warr (from who -level)

Mage is obviously not THE class to have, it's quite a bit lower than thief in the who -level statistics.  It has its uses, but it also has drawbacks.  It may be easier to fame a mage(solo), but xp is easier and in most situations grouping is better suited for other classes.

Currently thief is the highest level on average, in the long term stats (not sure how long term these stats are).  I think thief is popular not because it is a powerhouse class, but because it is a fun class to play.  Many players enjoy sneaking, stealing, and backstabbing.

"Balance is about the number of people who play each class, and to what levels." - Dentin

With this definition of balance it's impossible to say mage is currently unbalanced based on our current statistics.

Like Dentin said, cleric is unbalanced because it's not fun to play at high levels.  I think it is very possible that the current balance reflects what people have fun playing, rather than what is more powerful.  This is the way it should be - as people play the game to have fun... i think.  Utility classes are going to be very difficult to balance, because they are not going to be fun to play.  Utililty classes will of course be very useful, but not fun.  Isn't that a problem?

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Mason
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« Reply #3 on: July 11, 2009, 11:26:16 pm »

I dont know what the hell you kids are talking about, but IM HAVING FUN. Ill be looking forward to these kick ass abilities like holy lv4.
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boa
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« Reply #4 on: July 12, 2009, 04:37:53 pm »


Like Dentin said, cleric is unbalanced because it's not fun to play at high levels.  I think it is very possible that the current balance reflects what people have fun playing, rather than what is more powerful.  This is the way it should be - as people play the game to have fun... i think.  Utility classes are going to be very difficult to balance, because they are not going to be fun to play.  Utililty classes will of course be very useful, but not fun.  Isn't that a problem?



It's not fun to play at higher levels because it has no scaling skills.  It's weak.  I disagree on you theory as well (fun vs power) because POWER IS FUN. 

I don't even think healing is 'unfun'. The problem is a well-equiped mage can do as well if not usually better healing. Why? Heal is only level 22.  Im not sure but I think with the class system 3rd level 22 falls around 96 total.  The mage will have the requisite spells, more total mana because mages get more per level, and regen probably faster, as a ton of mana regen eq is mage or no_class flagged. In addition the spell stone skin is pretty much required if you want to heal for even a mid level group now, meaning you have to be 25 mage vs 22 cleric. 

In closing, the class isn't "fun" because it sucks. Mages can play healer better, the only 'niche' spell they have is turn undead, which while a good xp source and a great weapon on a few mobs, is too limited in its uses.  They're just aren't that many undeads around, and hardly any 'good' (align) undeads. I'm not sure what the good vs evil graphs look like, but generally we have a ton of players that like to play evil.  Pretty hard to stay evil when your best xp tool destroys your alignment.

Cleric could be fun, if more stuff scaled, and it had more slaying ability.  (maybe smite with a long cool down period)
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Mason
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« Reply #5 on: July 13, 2009, 06:20:13 am »

I will agree that clerics do lack proper equipment, and what equipment we do have is hindering.

Ill also agree that turning is a one-sided skill. I rarely EVER encounter an undead that's either neutral or good thats actually worth turning or experience.

Im mainly just waiting for some bamf clerical skill like a monk fighting style or holy hands or something.
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lilmike
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« Reply #6 on: July 14, 2009, 02:17:35 am »

I believe that cleric is unbalanced also.
One of the main reasons is that it does not "scale" as dentin said mutt said.
I believe that if heal is only 22 cleric, then people will get to 22 cleric, get heal, then just stop leveling cleric and even if it was a third class, it might become a fourth class.
If heal regenerated more hp for higher levels, then cleric would have something to level for.
That is to say, if a cleric gets to 22 and gets heal, there's not much else for them to get and all leveling will do is get them practices, so why should they level any further and not gain any benefits.
I believe that scaling would be a good thing in the clerical heal and maybe even harm trees.
This is not to say that you need to make it go totally up from what it is currently, just that it needs to go up some, even if it goes down a little at low levels.
As someone else posted in another thread, maybe 85 at 22 and around 125 or so hp around 33 cleric.
Just my thoughts,

-Lilmike.
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Draak
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« Reply #7 on: July 14, 2009, 05:19:17 am »

possible heal formula for clerics:

(cleric level * 3) + 20 + dieroll(1,cleric level * 0.5)
                                [i.e. roll a die with a number of sides equal to half your cleric level, once]

For 50 mana, a level 22 cleric restores:
87-97 hp per heal

For 50 mana, a level 33 cleric restores:
120-135 hp per heal

Sanctuary and possibly protection from evil should scale, too.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2009, 06:37:05 am by Draak » Logged

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psythe
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« Reply #8 on: July 14, 2009, 08:13:36 pm »

I agree with the fact that cleric is a lot less fun to play at higher levels. In fairness, it does have a few nice xp skills, but its lack of solo playability when compared to other classes makes it not really worth the trade off.

I think being able to solo is important, simply because there are going to be times when a person will want (or need) to do something alone (a one-person deed for an example when even people who prefer to group would need to be able to solo). Plus, it is often more benefitial to fame alone at higher levels, since the mobs become more obscure.
Maybe give cleric some more damage skills, or go with the increased scaling idea.
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Draak
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« Reply #9 on: July 17, 2009, 05:07:25 am »

A more stabilized progression for heal, that takes cast level into account. (previous scale gave high level casters in full clevel suits restoring 140-160 hp per heal)

(cleric level * 2) + 40 + 1d(cleric level)

level 22 cleric:
85-95 hp

level 33 cleric:
107-122 hp

level 32 cleric in full clevel suit heals (effectively casting at level 40):
121-140 hp
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Peko
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« Reply #10 on: September 04, 2009, 09:40:11 pm »

cleric ideas -

a water elemental group.

water protective spell for group cast - limits offensive spell use, but allows groups to travel with defense bonuses and lagged/prevented attacks from hostile mobs (as long as spell is draining mana) or high mana use spell.  <Would give a substantial roll for clerics exploring and grouping>

a water spell that acts as a group or single shield (vortex of water) protects casters, healers etc... makes some spells less effective, fire etc. makes some spells more effective, cone etc. slow damage to aggro enemies.

an offensive water spell that drowns enemies under certain conditions, a little physical damage - good spell in combo with fighting for the cleric warriors

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Bless food/water - adds beneficial effects to food items and/or water - amount of benefit could depend on player level and food level. random effects, or perhaps just healing spell group. Poor casters would create adverse effects - harm spell group. Could be for personal use only.

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Construct Shelter - nosave enterable magical saferoom that can be attacked and take damage but eventually destroyed while inside regening.

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blessed armor - certain pieces of equipment (probably blanks, or mid to low ac) could be blessed with added hit roll and random attachments.
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creature summoning - summon creatures with specific capabilities to aid you in battle or healing tasks <only one or two at a time>

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Dentin
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« Reply #11 on: September 04, 2009, 11:10:07 pm »

The Druid class will probably get the various nature/material earth spells, for things like water, air, earth, sunlight, etc.  I haven't really thought too hard about a water tree yet, as this class will probably be after Paladin/Knight.

Summoning makes sense for both Druid and Necromancer, just different beasts.

Crafting related I have not decided on yet.
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